What use case does a hypersonic fill that the US needs? Seems like you were saying ground air defense (like s400) penetration, but that’s what stealth bombers do. Or if stealth bombers don’t do that, what do they do?
Anyway, why do you think is the reason the US doesn’t have hypersonics, and why is that reason is the same as why they won’t put shark skin in their engines?
Anyway, why do you think is the reason the US doesn’t have hypersonics, and why is that reason is the same as why they won’t put shark skin in their engines?
Because US is technologically behind due to having a piss poor education system and not being able to poach talent from around the world the way it used to. US is a decaying empire that’s spiralling the drain right now.
But again, why would Russia and China be designing/building stealth bombers if they don’t actually work?
I agree about the education system. But they’ve still got a ton of engineering talent. China is catching up, but they’re retreading tech the US has had for a while. But it is still very impressive how fast they are catching up.
Check the operational history section on the b2 page, it’s got a bunch of stuff since 2000.
When again has B2 come in contact with actual air defence?
But again, why would Russia and China be designing/building stealth bombers if they don’t actually work?
Because they both serve a different purpose. Stealth bombers do have a lower profile than regular jets, so theoretically they can get closer to the target. However, the bombs that B2 drops can also be intercepted even if B2 itself isn’t. So, launching hypersonics from a stealth fighter is still obviously advantageous.
2011 in Libya b2 was also used. Libya had hundreds of sam launchers, so I assume that was contested, though I can’t find as good of a breakdown as the other two.
Kosovo also had about a hundred sam missiles. Again I couldn’t find as good of a breakdown on where exactly the b2s flew relative to them.
So those are some times b2 has come into contact with air defense. Do you have any sources that they haven’t come into contact with air defense assets?
Hypersonics (at least the maneuverable boost glide versions China has) need to get into the upper atmosphere before coming back down gaining momentum. That means they effectively have a minimum range to get up to speed. That minimum range is already larger than any heavily contested air defense zone, making stealth on the carrier aircraft redundant.
Again, Iraq and Libya were not a technologically advanced nation by any stretch of imagination. The air defences you’ve listed are ancient, and have little to do with what modern systems are capable of.
The stealth tech reduces the signature, but it doesn’t make it go away entirely, and it’s vulnerable to different types of radars working in combination. Furthermore, nowadays there is a lot of other telemetry that can be integrated such as heat, and sound waves it produces, and all this data can be analyzed by a computer in real time to pinpoint it.
Hypersonics (at least the maneuverable boost glide versions China has) need to get into the upper atmosphere before coming back down gaining momentum. That means they effectively have a minimum range to get up to speed. That minimum range is already larger than any heavily contested air defense zone, making stealth on the carrier aircraft redundant.
China has a range of hypersonics the same way Russia does because they do tech transfer with each other. Russia has been launching hypersonics from ground, air, and sea, and these have been an absolute nightmare for NATO defences in Ukraine.
One other huge advantage of hypersonics is that they give very little reaction time to the enemy. Launching a bomber and waiting for it to get to the target literally takes hours. A hypersonic missile can hit within 5 minutes. This means that an integrated system can use a satellite to detect a target, such as a B2 landing on the airfield, and notify appropriate launch system to eliminate it, and a hypersonic missile will come down on it within 5 minutes from over a thousand km range.
The US has not had a peer conflict since the b2 entered service. (Good thing too!) But even so, Iraq had the heaviest air defenses at the time.
Obviously stealth just decreases the detection range, but it can decrease it so far that you can weave between the mile or so of air defense detection and still drop bombs.
Yeah hypersonics do do that, but none of that needs stealth! They’re standoff range munitions, you’re outside of the enemy air defense bubble when you fire them, because noone has an air defense bubble larger than their range.
Again, Iraq air defences were incredibly dated technology. They’re not representative of modern capabilities.
Obviously stealth just decreases the detection range, but it can decrease it so far that you can weave between the mile or so of air defense detection and still drop bombs.
Given that, as you admit, this hasn’t actually been tested in practice, nobody knows how well this works. The links I provided above make it pretty clear that stealth aircraft can in fact be detected, and this is just public unclassified stuff. Furthermore, as I’ve already stated earlier, the missiles and bombs the aircraft uses can themselves be intercepted.
Yeah hypersonics do do that, but none of that needs stealth! They’re standoff range munitions, you’re outside of the enemy air defense bubble when you fire them, because noone has an air defense bubble larger than their range.
Right, that’s my whole point. You don’t actually need stealth when you have weapons that can engage from outside enemy’s air defense bubble. And having weapons that can fly really fast makes them far more effective because they can engage very quickly despite long ranges. Response time is everything. Incidentally, the plasma bubble that’s created by a hypersonic weapon as it superheats air in flight also acts as radiowave absorbing sheath making the weapon stealth. This further reduces already minuscule response window.
What use case does a hypersonic fill that the US needs? Seems like you were saying ground air defense (like s400) penetration, but that’s what stealth bombers do. Or if stealth bombers don’t do that, what do they do?
Anyway, why do you think is the reason the US doesn’t have hypersonics, and why is that reason is the same as why they won’t put shark skin in their engines?
Nobody has actually seen a stealth bomber do that in practice. In fact, this is what happened last time US tried using one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown
Because US is technologically behind due to having a piss poor education system and not being able to poach talent from around the world the way it used to. US is a decaying empire that’s spiralling the drain right now.
Check the operational history section on the b2 page, it’s got a bunch of stuff since 2000.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_B-2_Spirit
But again, why would Russia and China be designing/building stealth bombers if they don’t actually work?
I agree about the education system. But they’ve still got a ton of engineering talent. China is catching up, but they’re retreading tech the US has had for a while. But it is still very impressive how fast they are catching up.
When again has B2 come in contact with actual air defence?
Because they both serve a different purpose. Stealth bombers do have a lower profile than regular jets, so theoretically they can get closer to the target. However, the bombs that B2 drops can also be intercepted even if B2 itself isn’t. So, launching hypersonics from a stealth fighter is still obviously advantageous.
Catching up?
Seems to me like China has plenty of tech, like hypersonic missiles, that US doesn’t have. Here are a few more examples for you
https://interestingengineering.com/military/china-next-gen-submarine-detection
even a US propaganda outlet is admitting that China is surpassing the US in military tech https://www.voanews.com/a/china-establishing-commanding-lead-with-key-military-technologies-/7124026.html
It’s f117, but with good planning they penetrated into bagdad, the most heavily defended city at that point, undetected.
https://youtu.be/zxRgfBXn6Mg
Though it wasn’t quite as heavily defended in 2003, b2s and f117s did quite well against bagdad in enduring freedom.
https://youtu.be/Atm8D5uqr-k
2011 in Libya b2 was also used. Libya had hundreds of sam launchers, so I assume that was contested, though I can’t find as good of a breakdown as the other two.
Kosovo also had about a hundred sam missiles. Again I couldn’t find as good of a breakdown on where exactly the b2s flew relative to them.
So those are some times b2 has come into contact with air defense. Do you have any sources that they haven’t come into contact with air defense assets?
Hypersonics (at least the maneuverable boost glide versions China has) need to get into the upper atmosphere before coming back down gaining momentum. That means they effectively have a minimum range to get up to speed. That minimum range is already larger than any heavily contested air defense zone, making stealth on the carrier aircraft redundant.
Again, Iraq and Libya were not a technologically advanced nation by any stretch of imagination. The air defences you’ve listed are ancient, and have little to do with what modern systems are capable of.
The stealth tech reduces the signature, but it doesn’t make it go away entirely, and it’s vulnerable to different types of radars working in combination. Furthermore, nowadays there is a lot of other telemetry that can be integrated such as heat, and sound waves it produces, and all this data can be analyzed by a computer in real time to pinpoint it.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/224179944_Countering_Stealth_with_Passive_Multi-static_Low_Frequency_Radars
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/08/10/hensoldt-unveils-a-deployable-package-of-its-twinvis-passive-radar/
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2019/10/02/a-german-company-detected-the-invisible-f-35-with-its-own-radar-technology/
China has a range of hypersonics the same way Russia does because they do tech transfer with each other. Russia has been launching hypersonics from ground, air, and sea, and these have been an absolute nightmare for NATO defences in Ukraine.
One other huge advantage of hypersonics is that they give very little reaction time to the enemy. Launching a bomber and waiting for it to get to the target literally takes hours. A hypersonic missile can hit within 5 minutes. This means that an integrated system can use a satellite to detect a target, such as a B2 landing on the airfield, and notify appropriate launch system to eliminate it, and a hypersonic missile will come down on it within 5 minutes from over a thousand km range.
The US has not had a peer conflict since the b2 entered service. (Good thing too!) But even so, Iraq had the heaviest air defenses at the time.
Obviously stealth just decreases the detection range, but it can decrease it so far that you can weave between the mile or so of air defense detection and still drop bombs.
Yeah hypersonics do do that, but none of that needs stealth! They’re standoff range munitions, you’re outside of the enemy air defense bubble when you fire them, because noone has an air defense bubble larger than their range.
Again, Iraq air defences were incredibly dated technology. They’re not representative of modern capabilities.
Given that, as you admit, this hasn’t actually been tested in practice, nobody knows how well this works. The links I provided above make it pretty clear that stealth aircraft can in fact be detected, and this is just public unclassified stuff. Furthermore, as I’ve already stated earlier, the missiles and bombs the aircraft uses can themselves be intercepted.
Right, that’s my whole point. You don’t actually need stealth when you have weapons that can engage from outside enemy’s air defense bubble. And having weapons that can fly really fast makes them far more effective because they can engage very quickly despite long ranges. Response time is everything. Incidentally, the plasma bubble that’s created by a hypersonic weapon as it superheats air in flight also acts as radiowave absorbing sheath making the weapon stealth. This further reduces already minuscule response window.
So why is China building a stealth bomber?
Exactly. You can fix that by increasing the range of the weapons, or by decreasing the range of the air defense bubble with stealth.
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