I am from the UK. This idea of states having an influence over their education system seems weird to me, though I guess we might allow something similar with Scotland, Wales, or Northern Island.

As I said we really don’t teach handwriting that well. They give kids either ball points or these triangle grip things that are actually designed to increase the force it takes to write. Why? No idea but someone thought that was a good idea to stop people who write too quickly and mess it up. Weirdly that actually helped some people. Even though it makes no sense to me.

It’s interesting though that you say cursive is more legible for dyslexic people. I think for everyone else print handwriting beats cursive. Not that that’s the issue as it’s still perfectly readable when done right. I am talking about people with typical doctors handwriting who can’t actually write it properly. I am also talking about the difficulty of the technique needed and how that could be a problem for some students. You say teachers adapt but my experience is that they don’t. If making students use cursive improves grades though it might be worth it. I am wondering why that’s the case that it improves grades.

Either way I think typing should be much more of a focus in modern education. People type more often than they write by hand, yet there is almost no education on how to use a keyboard. Heck lots of modern school students apparently don’t know how to use a computer. I’ve heard of people going to University and not understanding how files and folders work, because it’s just presumed that new generations actually know this stuff without being taught.

Feathers are the things birds have that are part of their wing and help them fly. Pens were made from feathers at sorme points in history. I think the term you are looking for is nib, if you mean the metal part of a pen that touches the paper.

You have pens like the platinum Preppy and platinum plasir which have double seals around the nib. I left my preppy for an entire year and it still didn’t dry out. They aren’t the only brand to use tricks like this, my TWSBI Eco was also left for a year and was a-okay. It’s always good before buying a pen to check the reviews and see what their cap seals are like. Rollerballs do require less maintenance though you are correct. If you do leave a fountain pen and it gets clogged there are ways to fix it, as I had to do with two more of my pens that did clog when they were left with the others.

I’ve used cheap mechanical pencils before but not expensive ones. How much better are more expensive mechanical pencils?

Maybe I haven’t explained this but with regards things like handwriting and special education my country isn’t that well put together. They hand kids ballpoint pens for the most part unless you are in private school. Some schools force kids to use pencil even.

Cursive is fundamentally less legible and harder work for most students to learn. It should be taught yes, but not as the only way. Schools often force people to use cursive even when that person doesn’t have that skill, and the school isn’t willing to give them proper lessons on it or the lessons they give aren’t of good quality. It was a whole thing in my primary school.

I have actual clinical issues in several different areas of development, not just coordination. You can’t remove all issues before primary school starts, I am entitled to some help even now as a 23 year old PhD student and still have issues. I wouldn’t even have been accepted into primary school if my parents hadn’t gone out of their way to get me tested by psychologists as I had issues the school weren’t willing to get me tested for that were picked up on in preschool.

I can write pretty well now including cursive. It’s not clear to me how much of the problems I had were because I was younger and at a lesser stage of brain development or how much was bad teaching. Maybe if you know more developmental psychology than I do you could answer that question, but I suspect that answer will be different on a case by case basis.

I too think ball point pens are horrible. Fountain pens are not that expensive, last a lot longer as they are refillable, and just write better. There are some rather bad fountain pens out there though lol. Platinum Preppy is pretty much the gold standard for cheap pens under £10 or $10. Platinum plasir is a little more expensive but has a more durable body and cap made of metal using the same nib and feed as the preppy. You can also get disposable fountain pens now that aren’t half bad.

Liquid ink roller balls are a good product too and are a nice middle ground between ball point and fountain pen. Although to be fair I wouldn’t be against a return to good old fashioned dip pens as these are the best for calligraphy and honestly look cool as heck in my opinion.

Forcing children to do cursive was not really the point I am trying to make. Yes it’s technically more efficient to write that way, but it’s also considerably more complicated. Forcing children with disabilities to do it leads to all kinds of problems, and makes their writing less legible. I am more talking about techniques that avoid issues like RSI. If we are making children do things we should be teaching them the correct way to do it, not half assing it. While I think we should still teach cursive, I don’t think it should be mandatory. In fact I actually want to see more keyboard use with proper ten finger technique, as that is useful for the real world. Typing technique is also something schools love to neglect. It’s also better to give kids that option as even with better handwriting instruction some just do not have the required motor skills through no fault of their own. People like me were forced to do handwriting practice despite having significant coordination issues, and never being taught the right technique. Eventually I had to dig through obscure corners of the Internet to find out the right way. Situations like that should never be allowed to continue for as long as it did in my case. Either by actually teaching the right technique in the first place, or in cases where that doesn’t work by switching to typing instead.

Key chording has always been faster than conventional single letter typing, and that tech has been around for a long time now in the form of stenography machines. Yet most people learn on a conventional keyboard because it’s simpler and more ubiquitous. This is true even now that chording has been adapted to programming and similar tasks.

You have to remember we live in a world where most people don’t even know how to write properly, even those who do it as part of their job like doctors. If you draw letters by moving your fingers, you’re doing it wrong by the way. The actual proper technique involves using your shoulder, elbow, and wrist to do most of the work. We’ve known about this for centuries, and these techniques were designed with dip pens, quils, brush, and fountain pens in mind. The cheap ballpoint pen along with rather bad instructions from teachers has led to proper handwriting technique being forgotten, and causes problems like RSI in people who handwrite regularly.

If this is UK major local ISPs would be: O2, EE, Three

T-mobile did exist for a while but is now defunct and where replaced by Orange and then EE.

Three are the cheapest generally if they have coverage there.

I’ve never seen this happen. The reality is unless it’s a dorm full of CS students most don’t know fuck all about WiFi, networks, or want to pay for their own routers. It’s better to talk to the few who would attempt something like this.

No what this actually is is the ISP trying to make money charging for more devices.

The difference here is that the ISP is up charging for multiple devices, meaning this isn’t all being done for benevolent reasons.

The way many apartments work for non-students is each has its own WiFi. Honestly compared to how bad some Hall’s WiFi is this is a better option, but it’s not without problems. A lot of ISP routers either don’t support or don’t turn on by default DFS channels, 5.8GHz channels, 6 GHz band, or have WiFi 6 for BSS colouring. This means there will be loads of interference between adjacent WiFi networks.

It’s really frustrating especially when you have ISPs like Virgin whose kit has DFS support, but despite touting smart wifi they just never enable it, and most people don’t know to enable it either.

That’s already being attempted in the form of Redox OS. Though I don’t think it’s 100% POSIX compliant. Linux has so much inertia though, and Linus seems all for including Rust in Linux.

The rust guys would have gained a lot more traction by just asking the C guys to keep a bunch of comments up to date detailing the semantics and error checking procedures, and promising to edit their rust API if the C code changes, but I suspect they didn’t ask for that because they know that no guarantees come from a comment and they want to be sure that the rust code works across all the possible scenarios and in rust culture, that is always documented in the type system where it can be enforced.

I could be being daft but I thought this is more or less what the Rust guys were asking for. Tell us the current symantics of the system, and if it changes in future let us know what the new semantics are and we will fix the Rust code accordingly.

I do understand what you mean though about enforcing restrictions on what the C guys can do without breaking the Rust code. I think you run into situations wherever two languages meet. The way most projects handle this is the upstream releases a new version, or a release candidate of a new version with their breaking changes documented and then downstream updates their stuff accordingly when they get time. Obviously this is one project, but I imagine it’s possible for the C guys to update stuff in a pull request and then drop an email in LKML to the Rust guys so they know stuff needs fixing. None of this seems that hard to me.

Ultimately though everything here is Linus decision. Either your in or your out. If Linus says yes to Rust doing whatever then that’s what’s going to happen. Likewise if he says no, then it’s not going to happen that way. Until he weighs in no one can really say how this will end.

Personally though I disagree with the C guys. Safety features are important and should be used where it is practical to do so. Until now C has had the justification that it’s still the fastest language and by a significant margin. Now a somewhat safe language like Rust exists with the same speed and capabilities I don’t think we can afford to continue ignoring safety for the sake of a few bruised egos. If this was a proper industry like aviation safety would always come first, and if that means adopting new technologies and forcing people to adapt. I can understand if C devs have a hard time adapting, I don’t expect it to happen overnight. The expectation though should be they should learn some Rust eventually, even if it’s just enough to know the type signatures and what not that they might break with their changes to C code. Kernel devs are supposed to be some of the smartest computer people out there. If they can’t learn even that small amount of another language then should they really still be kernel developers?

They aren’t asking C devs to write Rust code, which is what the guy being a heckler was claiming. Why don’t they want to right Rust? For exactly the reasons you describe. The thing is though that’s not currently being asked of them, all they actually want is the documentation to create that code themselves.

You really don’t have to explain any of the culture clash to me lol. I’ve written both C/C++ and Rust. My C and C++ coding skills are demonstrably better (or at least used to be, it’s been a while) than my Rust skills. Why? Because of how complex those guardrails are. The difference is I have the self awareness to know that my lack of Rust skills doesn’t mean that the language is bad, or that C is a safe language to use. Rust tutorials could be improved. Perhaps an easier to use language like Zig might be more useful for some people. I feel like it’s a good compromise between safety and ease of use. Rust though is still incredibly progressive for the industry, and will improve systems security, maintainability and reliability going forward if only people would stop getting in the way.

Netflix is using FreeBSD for servers. You can’t blame everything they do wrong as being a problem with the new hires. They are using an OS older than Linux that changes more slowly than Linux, simply because it performs the best for their specific application. Rate of change isn’t the issue here.

In fact that’s 90% of what this comment is. Blaming new people and new techniques for problems when you aren’t a part of that organisation and don’t actually know what’s happening.

Working with computers is not the same as working with construction equipment. Some degree of fluid intelligence is needed in this field, no matter how experienced you might be, just like how a surgeon needs steady hands. The people you call greybeards aren’t nearly as old as your father is. We are talking about people who are in their 50s and 40s. They don’t have that level of cognitive decline yet. Likewise some things like ext4 aren’t likely going to be ported to Rust now or even ever. They can keep maintaining them as they are now for the foreseeable future. Plus I don’t want people to have to keep working into their 70s and 80s. At some point it becomes elder abuse. Let people retire man.

C has existed for a long time now. We’ve been trying to replace it for ages, for most of it’s lifespan even. C++ actually was one of the new options at one point. I get it seemed immovable only a decade ago, and I think that has lulled people into a false sense of security. In truth it was inevitable it would have to be replaced one day. It’s already well outlived the life expectancy of a programming language. Just think about Ruby: created long after C yet has already become mostly irrelevant. You talk about the maximum rate of tool change, but C is one of the oldest tools we have, keeping it around would be almost 0 rate of tool change over decades. If you can’t see that C is very slowly dying then you haven’t seen the writing on the wall for the past several years. It’s on you at that point.

We should look back with pride at everything that has been accomplished with C, and just how long it’s been relevant. We can do this while still acknowledging it needs to be phased out gradually.

No one is asking for change that rapid either. Linux started adopting Rust four years ago now. It’s probably still going to have C code inside it for at least a decade from now. This isn’t some quick change, it’s a gradual process. People have plenty of time to adapt, and those who are too old to do so will be around retirement agent if not already dead by the time C is fully phased out.

We of course play plenty of video games together to keep him sharp. We also eat mushrooms, paper when necessary, and he works out a lot. We do all we can, believe me.

Honestly you take more care of yourself and your father than I do. I am only in my 20s and suck at video games. If I took mushies or LSD I would probably lose my mind, assuming it’s all still there in the first place. I suspect there is a good reason why people like me only have a life expectancy of 58 or so.

C has been around for a very long time. I don’t think wanting to replace a 1970s language, that was old when current gray beards were young is a bad thing. People have had more than enough time, and still have a good decade or two to make their careers writing and maintaining C code. Sometimes things have to change, old people be damned. It’s diatribes like this that remind me the human race advances one body at a time as those holding us back die out.

Edit: also we aren’t talking about people in their 70s and 80s here. Most of these “greybeards” are in their 40s and 50s at most. Linux itself is from the 1990s and is therefore more modern than C.

At this point you might as well complain about the mods and admins on Lemmy as tons of them are out of wack. I have had comments removed for stating facts that every should know just because it doesn’t agree with the lemmy hivemind. For example say anything positive about AI or how it was used before the likes of ChatGPT came around.

That might be true but it’s not what happened at that specific conference. I beg you watch the clip to see what happened. Also fuck programmers with the attitude you describe. It’s been proven wrong over and over again with so many C memory safety vulnerabilities.

That to me sounds like exactly the reason why developers like the above have left. They are having to take on the burden of gently letting down other devs who are angry over a simple misunderstanding. A misunderstanding that wouldn’t have happened if they had been listening or bothered to ask first before jumping to conclusions. Imagine someone heckles you on stage and you have to respond kindly. I certainly wouldn’t. If someone had listened to my talk, misinterpreted it, then heckled me over it you can bet I would be angry and would respond in kind. To then see this misinformation being spread again would drive me nuts. I can see why they left.

The bottom line for me is that Rust devs who work on this stuff for free shouldn’t be getting hounded by C devs just for asking for proper documentation that frankly they should have provided in the first place. I say this as someone who is skeptical of Rust for various reasons.

Unfortunately there are a lot of problems created by using C in the kernel, and having all of this done manually. Many kernel vulnerabilities including several severe ones have been due to issues with memory management. Even the whitehouse has spoken on these issues related to C. Rust has been proven to be comparable to C in terms of performance, sometimes even faster. So it doesn’t make a great deal of sense to keep using C for new projects.

That all being said Rust has had its own issues. There was a recent vulnerability in older versions of cargo the Rust package manager for instance. It’s a somewhat new language so obviously teething issues are to be expected, and it might be too soon to use Rust for mission critical systems. It’s also a harder language to learn and understand, so that makes adopting it more difficult especially for very experienced C developers like those who work on the Linux kernel. It might be better to wait and see what other languages like Zig and Carbon manage to do, but those are even newer and will take more time to actually be production ready.

I think the point of redox is more than just rewriting Linux in Rust. Architecturally they are very different. Redox uses the more modern microkernel approach, whereas Linux is a modular monolith. There are advantages and disadvantages to both designs. They are actually polar opposites in fact. The compromise is something called a hybrid kernel which is used by Windows NT.

This isn’t a disagreement. One person is stating something incorrect. You can disagree on opinion, but facts are facts. The person being referred to here isn’t asking others to learn Rust, they are just asking for more information about the already existing C code so that they can write their Rust code to interoperate with it. This misunderstanding is exactly why that developer was getting heckled on stage, and is the reason why now one has left the project. I would appreciate it if you didn’t make a misunderstanding sound like a valid opinion. Enough damage has already been done.