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But what will be left after it bursts? At least in cause of the housing bubble - the houses existed physically - what will be after the AI crash? Lots of spare gear sold for cheap?
Used GPUs
What was left after the cryptocurrency crash? A whole lot of GPUs that got repurposed for AI. They’ll just get repurposed for whatever extremely computationally intensive thing some computer engineer comes up with. Until that bubble bursts, rinse and repeat. What’s happening is project managers are selling the next big thing to make a lot of capital really quickly to a board of directors.
From the entry for “zaibatsu” on Wikipedia:
Under the Allied occupation after the surrender of Japan, a partially successful attempt was made to dissolve the zaibatsu. Many of the economic advisors accompanying the SCAP administration had experience with the New Deal and were highly suspicious of monopolies and restrictive business practices, which they felt to be both inefficient, and to be a form of corporatocracy (and thus inherently anti-democratic).
The only difference? The zaibatsu actually diversified their operations.
And that is why Yamaha makes everything from musical instruments to motorcycles
If Lemmy is supposed to be the place where the most tech savvy people in the interest congregate, and everyone in the comments is unsatisfied with AI then we really do have a problem. These companies have all reached a point where they no longer listen to their most informed customer base but instead take 100% of direction from investors who don’t even know what they want except a line going up.
Eh. Lemmy has a lot of ignorance surrounding technology and science compared to other sites. Hacker News is what you’re looking for if you want somewhere that is full of the most tech savvy people on the Internet, and most of them are extremely pro AI (with some weird AI cultishness alongside). Myself I think AI is a bubble but there is a lot of promise in the underlying technology once you take away the hype, just like the .com bubble at the turn of the century.
Too many people equate AI with LLMs only. LLMs are mostly bubbled bullshit, with a few limited use cases. But AI is a much broader topic. The really scary AI is the stuff we hear little to nothing about.
People also forget how dramatically tech can advance over time. Spoiled impatient Americans in particular want a finished product or they quickly write it off as “garbage”. They forget every product we own and use was once “garbage”.
Lobste.rs is probably even more on the “engineers talking to engineers” side of things. I’ve not visited in a while and am not sure what people there think of (the current crop of gen)AI.
I thought it was the place for people who didn’t want their shitposting interrupted by random child porn. Am…am I in the wrong place???
It’s always interesting to read the experiences of others. The one and only time I stumbled on cp was in the late 90s. Haven’t seen it on reddit or lemmy. Our bubbles keep us isolated.
Unfortunately Lemmy is rife with CSAM too, but the larger instances have done a pretty great job eliminating it.
Smaller instances still get dumped on sometimes.
Edit: actually it feels like it’s been a year or so since any CSAM spam events, so good job everyone
I disagree with main post and agree with edit. I’ve only seen abuse material on Lemmy once and it was on an instance that didn’t have an automated moderation tool for image uploads and they promptly added that mitigation step after it happened
Suddenly I’m extremely worried about using lemmy. What’s the right way to respond if something is seen. Call the police? FBI hotline or something? Certainly screenshotting anything to send to authorities is out of the question but as soon as an image is loaded a device downloads it to cache so it’s like a dirty bomb just sitting on your device at that point. I have been blissfully ignorant that anything I use in my day to day would ever share a space with such abhorrent behavior. Kind of not sure I should still use the service, like that has actually been an issue on here before?
Happy to say I haven’t seen that shit here yet…unlike Reddit and 4chan.
People need housing, no one needs this AI crap. Even in boring engineering jobs using tools that solved problems decades ago, we are getting AI shoveled in left and right in places no one needs or wants it. And calling old features “AI” is also another problem.
And now these stupid “barking bears attacking fat sleeping people” videos are everywhere, and people seem to think they’re real.
We should focus on natural intelligence first, that is to say each other, and education…
Oh and the headline should read “Every day”, “everyday” is an adjective, like an everyday occurence.
Ai will be the best tool to keep the masses stupid since television.
Except it’s 17x larger & will take the entire US GDP with it.
The GDP issue is not because of the AI bubble, it’s because of tariffs and the complete destruction of US soft power abroad
And I would almost bet the crash will be about the time the Dems take power, just so the Republicans can whine about the situation they created and blame the Democrats for it.
The problem with this theory is that it assumes Republicans will give up power to allow the Democrats to govern.
The part of Republicans blaming Democrats is spot on.
Is “US soft power” a euphemism for sowing destruction and proxy wars everywhere? Or do you mean things like the awful show NCIS being barely disguised pro-Israel pro-war propaganda? Like that?
I won’t touch the entertainement / Hollywood reference to soft power as that deserves a discussion in its own right.
But as someone who works with … or used to work with US diplomats abroad on a daily basis, I would urge you to educate yourself and people around you about the myriad of activities that US diplomats are engaged in. Contrary to conventional ‘wisdom’, US foreign policy consists of a lot more than bombing the Middle East and supporting Israel. Nobody talks or knows about all of the other things but I can tell you for a fact that American diplomats were (and in some cases still are) helping a lot of people in Eastern Europe. We were helping a lot of people. Shelters for the homeless, schools and museums for kids, whole new campuses for universities, orphanages, adn the list goes on, and on. There’s a reason why over 75% of state department employees working abroad are not republicans. They are not the people most think they are.
We were doing good work with the Americans here. We were helping children, we were exposing corrupt oligarchs. We were in this fight together, not just in Eastern Europe but all over the world. Yes, even the US Marines stationed at Constanza and Novo Selo, ready to fight should the Russkies anything, deserve respect. As one marine told me recently “Don’t worry, come what may, we will stay and fight with you”.
Then everything changed this year. My old American friends were replaced with incompetent political commissars sent by the new idiocratic regime in DC.
The US marines are still here though, and they are still ready to die. I’m just not sure if its worth it anymore.
TLDR: Educate yourself and resist the temptation to parrot oversimplified narratives. Just because you only know about the bad and don’t care to learn about the good, doesn’t mean the latter doesn’t exist.
Edit: in an attempt to preempt incoming windmills: I detest Trump, Netanyahu and imperialism in general. But that does not mean anything American (or whatever nationality) should be presented as black and white. There are 340 million Americans. Each one of them here is proof that America is not black and white, and neither are its citizens.
Let me guess though, Russia doing the same things is just pure evil or propaganda. Because guess what? Countries don’t do any of the things you mention out of Christian charity, they do it for power and control.
GTFOH with your soft pedaling of this bullshit.
I’m in eastern europe and the last time Russia did anything around here was when my grandparents were starving
Please let this happen.
doesn’t look a goddamn thing like the housing bubble
I suppose similar in the sense that the housing bubble involved a bunch of rich idiots speculating on bad debt that had been vaguely washed to make it look good and now we have a bunch of rich idiots speculating on AI based on vague promises that it’ll be good.
More like the .com bubble but much worse.
but the circles
Can confirm, circles look like bubbles.
This doesn’t really tell me anything, I’d have to compare it with other charts. E.g. what does the chart for agriculture look like? Airplane manufacturing? Internet in early 2000s?
I think it’s hard to definitely call something a bubble until it pops.
The definition of a bubble goes something along the lines of market prices exceeding the intrinsic value of the investment they represent, which may be true here?
If you want to read more about this the rough name for these companies was “the magnificent seven” a year or so ago when I last looked at this. A quick Google suggests represent about a third of the SNP 500’s value now and have a cape ratio (cyclicly adjusted price to earnings) of ~37 compared to 15-20 being normal.
Edit: the above baseline is incorrect; see sugar_in_tea’s comment for a more accurate baseline and some interesting counterpoints
I can’t find a good numerical source for the correlated risk within this group, and I suspect analyzing it is very difficult. Given they all used to be a lot more diversified in the past but now a large % of their valuation is predicated on AI historical correlation analysis probably fails. But the diagram linked here suggests it’s probably bad to put all your money in these companies. (Or even a 3rd if you are in an s&p 500 index tracker 😶)
Like, none of this definitively says this is a bubble, since if it were possible to divine that the bubble would immediately pop, but it does suggest there is a strong likelihood we are seeing a bubble.
~37 compared to 15-20 being normal.
15-20 was normal for the 100 years ending 40-50 years ago. But of we look at the last 40 years or so, the CAPE has been higher, suggesting that we don’t know how what “normal” looks like going forward. More people are buying stocks than ever before due to retirement plans and poor bond yields, which pushes up the PE.
So whether ~40 is high for a PE going forward isn’t clear. The CAPE hit ~45 in the 2000 crash, and reverted to ~20 after the crash, yet the 2008 crash only hit ~26 and crashed down to ~14 and quickly bounced back to ~20. The 2008 had little to do with CAPE and more to do with corruption in the banking industry, whereas 2000 was almost purely oversized hype in the burgeoning tech market.
So is the normal range 20-30? Idk. Maybe 20 is actually low going forward, it’s unclear. Either way, 40 isn’t as outlandish as it was in the 2000s, and that pushed up to 45 before crashing.
there is a strong likelihood we are seeing a bubble.
Agreed. But if you drop out of the market and invest in other stuff, you would miss whatever the rest of the runup will do before it bursts, which could leave you worse off than someone just investing in the entire market by market cap. Ot could continue to run for 10-20 years, or it could pop this year, it’s impossible to know since it relies heavily on investors continuing to believe the hype and companies continuing to have something to back up that hype.
Valid, I got 15-20 from a Google search, but further research puts your numbers as more reasonable, I will edit the patent post.
I don’t think anyone should trust my numbers either. Here’s the CAPE data, make your own decision as to whether the CAPE ratio makes sense going forward.
All the economy is a big circle if you draw the circle big enough.
Actually scratch that. There is an economy that is not just one big circle jerk, such as the development of new technologies or the terraforming of deserts into fertile land; as neither of these things ends the way it started; it brought lasting change, and that is true progress.
Actually did you see my presentation that i made about this recently?
The point is to convince the americans to invest in new technologies.
To all those who say that human spaceflight is impossible:
Settling mars is a centuries long undertaking. You basically have to nurture a whole ecosystem from scratch… that would be a brutally difficult and lengthy process in the best of conditions. But of course, these aren’t the best conditions. We aren’t doing particularly well with the ecosystem we’ve already got.
If you want a historical project, then look to balancing modern industry within the planet’s biosphere. It’s a prerequisite to anything happening on mars.
There is no good economic reason to colonize other planets. We have plenty of space here on earth, with conditions already much more hospitable than that of mars - deserts, for example. The resources needed to turn these into habitable land is so much less than the resources required to make even a tiny part of Mars inhabitable (i.e. establish a colony that relies on life support systems) it’s insane to go for Mars first. The reason colonizing Mars is talked about at all is because a rich white dude wants to go to Mars, since deserts are too boring for his spoiled ass.
I actually agree that it would be cool if we went to Mars, not to colonize it but just to be there. But comparing it to white pillaging of the Americas is just incorrect. Mars is not inhabitable by humans, the Americas very much were. The external resources needed to colonize America were zero, in fact pillaging local lands meant a lot of resources for the Empire. Mars is going to be a much more expensive and much less profitable endeavor.
Actually I replied to you before, pointing out the very same fallacy: https://lemmy.ml/post/33824723/20134917
Europeans caused massive death in the Americas. I do not think we should replicate that model.
Also, the chance is small, but there might have been a separate biogenesis (beginning of life) on Mars. Sending humans with our dirty microbiome would almost certainly wipe any evidence of that, and possibly cause an extinction of an entirely separate form of life, which would be a crime even more horrible than the extinctions and genocides which we have caused so far.
Let’s just leave Mars alone until we’ve studies it more and are certain there is no life. Colonizing the moon seems challenging enough for a couple centuries…
Great point.
I’ll just wait for the movies to come out ten years later telling us exactly how they all lost our money again.
Will it have Margot Robbie in a bathtub?
It’d better!
And no one with any influence will learn from it. Then it happens all over again
Almost like they’re not losing it, but stealing it.
But where is Palantir on this? Because they’re discernibly connected to several of these orgs, and that displays the character of what this is actually about.
So how dangerous is that really? I assume one day we’ll finally see investors saying, “Nah, that’s a bubble. I’m not gonna see any returns from those companies - I’m selling.” Then stock prices will fall, and some investors will lose money by selling for less than they bought. After that, AI unicorns will start to lose funding and close their businesses, laying off people.
But will I - a person who does not work in the AI industry and has not invested in AI companies - be affected by this?
Your pension is tied to these companies stocks. I can pretty much guarantee that “your” pension fund owns quite a few of these stocks.
But, and this is the important part, that isn’t your pension. It is the pension for those that are retired right now. There is no saved stack of money that you earned during your life thats waiting for you. Unless there is an equal amount of tax paying workers by the time you retire, you wont be getting that pension.
pension
I’m not sure how old you think most of us are, but I don’t think pensions are a common retirement vehicle anymore, and haven’t been for a while. 401k would probably be the modern equivalent, and it’s still running on the stock market for the majority of its life prior to beginning to withdraw.
About half of the US population is enrolled in a pension even today…
Pension is the correct English term. 401k doesn’t mean anything unless you’re american.
Pension is the correct English term
I don’t think it is.
A pension implies benefits are distributed to the person in retirement, usually with some fixed amount per month. My understanding is that in the UK, defined contribution plans are required to be invested largely in annuities by retirement, which satisfies that, whereas in the US, 401ks don’t have such restrictions. So a 401k could be depleated well before death, or be passed on to children as inheritance, unlike an annuity. There are required minimum distributions, but they don’t kick in until your 70s.
If 401ks switched to a defined benefit plan at retirement, I could see calling it a pension. But since they’re not, I think that’s misleading, and employer sponsored plan makes more sense.
Not true of UK defined contribution, you can do what you want just like a 401k, though it may be disadvantagous for tax purposes.
It’s pretty normal in British English to use pension as a synonym for retirement account, though I can see why you don’t like that.
I am in the US. In regard to employer based retirement, there are a few pension programs still available, mostly union based. In other corporate environments that do not offer union pensions (as they are non-union)- they offer the 401K if a for-profit or a 403B if non-profit. As you get closer to retirement, many 401K/403B recalibrate to a larger proportion of Bonds vs riskier stocks/futures. Although I also invest in some ETFs that are not pretax (only the earnings are taxable).
One thing people didn’t mention is that I’m pretty sure the top 10% of Americans by income make up 50% of consumption because of the heavily K shaped revovery that has happened. These Americans have a large percentage of their wealth in stocks, and if the stock market crashes, they will feel less wealthy and less willing to spend, decreasing their spending, tanking the US economy.
I think the top 10% are author of more than 50% of the spending/consumership. That is about to become larger.
Trump is a much bigger threat to tanking the US economy. He is working in that direction every day. Tariffs are horrible for the economy. Sure, he gets American factories built and jobs are created but things overall are going to be much more expensive for consumers.
I agree, but that’s just another factor, and it will also cause the stock market to crash, among other things.
Also, the worst thing is he won’t get American factories to be built. Maybe one or two, but no one in the right mind is going to relocate large amounts of manufacturing to the US when tariffs are coming in and out of effect all the time. Tariffs only work for increasing manufacturing if companies believe they will last a long time. If companies think a tariff will last a month or a year, there’s no point in making a factory that will take two, three years to build and then five years to become net profitable, because by the time the factories finished and the tariffs are gone, everyone that still has a factory outside of the US will just out compeat that factory with lower prices.
Boo hoo. Rich people become less rich.
And the poors lose their jobs but who cares lmao they should just eat cake
You are white knighting the poor to protect your own ass(ets).
Trickle down economics is bullshit
No, actually when people stop buying things and companies close down, I’m pretty sure the employees of said companies lose their jobs.
It sucks but that’s capitalism for you.
The best thing us poors in the US can do is eliminate our consumer debt, pay it off or do a bankruptcy and pray(hope really hard and vote) we do get a president who can effectively forgive student debt. This means no spending, strict budgeting and eliminating any and all subs, discount phone, etc. If you are already there, getting more paid work if possible.
But if AI pops then that doesn’t mean that people will stop buying things.
Very few people are employed by the AI industry. Most people’s income won’t change. Most people’s consumption won’t change.
You do realise that if 50% of consumption disappears then a lot of people from that 90% will loose their jobs as well. I don’t care about the 10%, I also think the income inequality in the US is insane, but the fact is that if AI stocks tank right now, poor people will feel it as well (much more so than rich people, because they can’t survive without a job and don’t have wealth as a safety net)
You are talking yourself into trickle down economics. There is now plenty of evidence that this isn’t true.
There is no need to protect rich people’s wealth so that the poor don’t suffer
I don’t understand what your point is? I’m merely expanding on OP’s question and stating the fact that the way things are currently, when the AI bubble bursts poor people will feel it the most. Trickle down economics doesn’t work because if you give 100 bucks to a rich person, they’ll spend like 5 of it. If you give it to a poor person, they’ll spend all of it. But that has nothing to do with the fact that if the bubble bursts right now, poor people aren’t going to somehow get any of that money. They will loose their jobs, because the economy slowed down and nobody is buying anything and their jobs aren’t needed anymore. They will just suffer more and rich people will buy up their houses that they now have to sell at bargain prices.
They will loose their jobs, because the economy slowed down and nobody is buying anything and their jobs aren’t needed anymore
No.
The AI debt creation and investment is not of any benefit to the working class (except for a few construction workers). These data centers don’t create 1000s of jobs. Windsurf has 250 employees. Cursor has 30.
This AI bubble is not affecting general income, only assets. As it doesn’t hit income, it doesn’t hit consumption. Poor people earn and consume. They are asset poor.
A pop in the AI bubble will damage the billionaires, but not the poor.
Those data centers drive up energy costs for us and increase global warming. They don’t help at all. Plus AI steals IP of creatives.
But I’m not saying the jobs lost by AI companies collapsing is gonna cause a recession, I’m saying the AI bubble collapsing, bringing down the stock market with it, will cause a recession and loss of jobs. 35% of the S&P is made up of stocks in the top 7 US tech firms. The stock market is extremely skewed towards these 7 firms, and a large part of their current evaulation is made up from speculation of potential AI returns. When the bubble bursts, everyone who is invested in these firms will feel it. As I said, the top 10% of Americans make up 50% of consumption, can’t find a confirmation but I think that’s the highest in modern history. If this 10% suddenly looses 30-40% of their wealth because a stock market crash, this consumption will be severely affected. They won’t buy as many fancy goods, won’t go on expensive vacations, in general will do much less. We can argue whether having a class of people like that benefits the economy or not, I’d say it doesn’t, but the fact of the matter is that if the stock market were to crash because of AI companies, everyone is affected, because of how much money the 10% spend.
Yes, you absolutely will be effected.
In a general way, the plebs always do the heavy lifting - a universal truth since the dawn of time.
More specifically, your pension / 401k will lose a heap of money.
As the economy contracts there will be lay offs.
That means loan defaults, et cetera.
I don’t know the answer, but during 2008 onwards (seems like the economy didn’t fully recover until the end of Obama’s presidency), every industry slowed down. Was hard for me to get a fast food job or consistent minimum wage assembly line work through temp agencies. Things can go into vicious positive feedback loops during downturns (investors afraid to invest due to bad economic outlook -> factories and such don’t get built or expanded -> unemployment rises -> people spend less -> companies start laying off -> economic outlook worsens -> investors selling and moving to "safer’ assets -> …). The entire banking system pretty much imploded during 2008; I don’t know how much exposure banks have to AI (commercial real estate is another thing to worry about though). With any luck the AI crash would be more like the dot-com crash, which mostly just hurt one industry (but I remember my father talking about factory layoffs during that too).
My family lost a great deal of invested wealth in that 2008 crash with the death of Mellon Bank. It does not seem like a lot today but … if it had been invested in say Chase or G-S… it would have probably been double what it was by now. I am sure my dad was twisting in his coffin when that happened. I am glad he did not suffer that when it happened (he died in 2005).
Pension funds are to a large extent exposed to the stock indices. Since these companies grow and grow in valuation, a larger portion of pension funds are exposed to these companies. The so-called “magnificent seven” make up about 35% of the US stock market now. A lot of people will see a large portion of their pension savings affected by this. If you are not a US citizen, you sre still likely exposed to these companies.
Were you affected by the dotcom bubble?
Maybe the remaining tech companies, such as Microsoft and Nvidia, might raise prices of their products to cover the losses.
nvidia cards would cost as much as a good used car.
They already do.
Burn it all to the ground
More like the 2000s bubble.
It’s objectively a bad thing when a country’s entire economy is being propped up by seven companies and the vast majority of consumer spending is concentrated in the top 1%.
The most optimistic take I’ve seen: AI is a drain on the entire economy that sucks up all investment and this is why the rest of the economy is basically in a recession. Once the bubble pops, investors will flood back into the real economy and correct the problem.
I’m not optimistic.
I’ll play devil’s advocate here: agreed that the rest of the (US) economy seems to be slowing or shrinking but remains buoyed by AI / Mag 7 stocks. That said, a lot of the investment reflected above is in data centers and hardware (Nvidia, Coreweave, Oracle, Microsoft).
The bubble pop will hinge on whether there is value in this data center buildup beyond AI. Unless everyone starts paying fistfulls of cash for AI chat, these companies may be able to find another use for all that compute and avoid a total crash. That could be a target for all that investment you mention.
The hardware is specialized for chatbots, it’s not just something they can plug-and-play for other use cases. That means using it for other computing tasks is even less efficient per kWh and per litre of water, which will make it hard to justify the resource requirements.
Surely some of this hardware can find new life, but assets will be stranded.
Can the AI bubble please suck up all the housing investment?
The way to make a big dent in that is to tax unused housing, with peogressivwly increasing amounts as they continue unoccupied. And limit or outright deny ownership by companies and investment firms.
We have more than enough housing for everyone, but a large portion of it sits unused. In many cases only because no one will/can pay what some of these companies are demanding monthly for them.
Basically Dutch Disease.
I feel money itself is our new Dutch disease. We live and die according to the flux of money in the global economy/stock markets…
Are there any theories like that out there? Because money start to no longer function correctly IMO.
Specially when those companies are valued in TRILLIONS. Nothing is worth trillions, somehow these surreal numbers have been accepted as hard fact.
Nothing is worth trillions,
There is things worth trillions. Like full countries, and the largest pension funds and social security funds. Having a single company be comparable to those massive collections of people is insane, and it’s because they think it can replace workers–when it can’t, not yet, and not for a long time
Evaluations of everything is crazy. Net worth of celebrities with make up lines in particular is crazy. Look how many celebs are worth a billion dollars. To be worth that much, they should be selling at least $50 millions a year of product with no prediction of winding down.
Hahaha this is fine, I am fine with this, what could possibly go wrong
Yep it’s such a fragile situation
This is fine 🐶☕️🔥
